General Chat

Just a couple of quick points before I climb to bedsville.

Susan wiv. Thanks, honest. Absolutely no offence taken :-)

Cynthia - not an office holder? I think we would call your leadership involvement that of an office holder. It involves training of various forms. I have just done training in protecting the vulnerable with worship leaders, youth leaders, fellow local preachers, Sunday School teachers - we were all called office holders.

Kay. I think you could manage 10/10 judging by what you wrote. But commandments get very much simpler to remember but very much harder to obey in the New Testament :-( :-(

Hello everyone,

I too enjoy reading this thread - hope you'll allow me to add my bit. With John's mention today of John Wesley and Home Groups, I would like to tell you of my experience with a Home study group.

I am a member of a small country Methodist church, and I live in S. Carolina, having left my dear old home in Wiltshire in 1962. I attended chapel occasionally over the years, then, about 12 years ago, joined a small Home study group. I was very nervous at first, and quickly realized that, even with all the RI at school, and many years of Sunday school as a child, my knowledge of the Bible was minimal. I soon felt comfortable in asking questions, and came to enjoy our little Bible study time immensely. We met at a friend's house every Tue. morning for an hour and a half - 30 mins. chatting and an hour of study, 7 of us, around the kitchen table.. Once a month we had lunch together - usually a crock pot or two of soup or chili and wonderful desserts. Since we were all retirees, it was inevitable that members would probably pass away, and we disbanded about two years ago.

Shortly afterwards I joined a Sunday school class at church. We have classes for all age groups, and my class has about 12 participants. It's a great group, and our teacher is very knowledgeable. We meet for an hour before church, and we are all there to help one another. Our lesson yesterday was from Thess. 4 & 5. concerning Christ's return. We got into a discussion about Paradise. Is it above or below the earth? Jesus told the thief that today he (the thief) would be with Jesus in Paradise, but we know that Jesus first descended into hell, so it would seem that it must be below the earth. If anyone can explain it to me, please do so in simple terms. I have always understood that when I die, my soul will be immediately with Christ, which would be in Heaven? However, when Jesus returns, the dead in Christ will rise first to join Him, so does that mean that my soul will actually be with my remains, in the grave? I'm sure we all have our own understanding of it. Didn't mean to gabble on so.
Ruby.

Ruby. What you describe about house groups is exactly how Wesley organised his (edit) Methodist Society within C of E. His objective was to strengthen the Anglican Communion, not weaken it. His members would be expected to attend their local parish church in the morning and take communion, then assemble in small classes to learn in the afternoon, to discuss the sermon and pray and search scriptures. And no doubt have a biscuit and a cuppa. I think each member paid a penny a week. And many could not afford a penny so class leader or a wealthier member of the class had to stump up the money for the poorer ones.

Of course, it put great pressure on the Vicar. He would be asked some quite deep theological questions by an ag lab as people left church. And quite a few Vicars had a head religion but did not have any great depth of spiritual understanding.

And the question you have asked is so deep and so important. I wonder if there is a simple answer. You may get many. I have my view, but it may be very wrong.

I think Jesus descended to hell for 3 days (Friday night, all Saturday, early hours of Sunday). He was very God, made human with a sinful nature yet he never ever sinned. He had already been tested by the devil. Now he actually went down into Hades and fought ferociously with him. The devil represents death and the last great enemy death was defeated. Routed. So no one any more needs to fear being defeated by death - the grave no longer held any terrors for those who knew (or would come to know) Jesus as their brother.

So the battle of Armageddon (which is to be played out at the end of the world) had already been won when Jesus rose from death that first Easter morning . For some reason, the devil is still allowed to petulantly flay his tail in our day. Many are attracted to him, but a few are not. And it is those few who are the "saved" remnant in our generation. And I think God is waiting for all his children (all the brothers and sisters of Christ) to be saved from the wiles of the devil. To be refined and prepared for heaven. There are still some he wants in our generation, and possibly the next one too.

And in the last day, all the living and the dead will be given perfect bodies and will rise to meet Jesus (who I think will be like the Jesus of Revelation - very fearsome looking, not a meek and mild shepherd). And Jesus will judge us all - nobody can escape his judgement. Those who have died in Christ, whose souls are already in heaven, will know their fate already. Perfect souls will be united with perfect bodies - free of pain, free of wrinkles, free of age. Perfect - as God intends us to be for eternity.

"Jesus told the thief that today he (the thief) would be with Jesus in Paradise, but we know that Jesus first descended into hell"

Sorry, Ruby. Noticed when I read through my reply that I had not tackled your key question. Lazarus was told he would be with Jesus in heaven also. I think this is when the belief of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit (three in one) really applies.

"I and the Father are one" said Jesus to Pharisee leaders in gate of Temple. And they got very angry and tried to arrest him. So it is a person of God (the second personality, if you like) who is wrestling in hell with the devil. But the thief is with the Father that day in paradise above - hence "you will be with me in paradise TODAY". Although we pray about three distinct personalities of God, they are indivisible. Three in One, One in three. :-)

I dont think so John 10/10 I live by my human instincts as what I think is right towards others and not from what I see as just words from a book of something I do not belive in. :-D :-D.

:-D :-D @ Kay

I'm a simple soul ( as my mum with her RC background used to say of herself)

but isn't this all making it too complicated?

Re Jesus descending to 'hell', that is the English interpretation of the word Hades surely, not the original...so it kind of beats me why anyone would use the later interpretation?

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/february7/31.74.html

Besides, I think there is too much over analysis, you don't analyse love...if you have any sense ;-)

Keep it simple, you get closer. imho

Back in my box as I wasn't going to add to this thread again lol.

Am I invisible, John?

"I love you when you bow in your mosque, kneel in your temple, pray in your church. For you and I are sons of one religion, and it is the spirit." - Khalil Gibran

~~~~to Joy, I can seeeee you :-)

:-) SueMaid

Goodness me - I don't know where to start.... :-S


First of all, hello to everyone......and it's lovely to read all the comments.

Okay, I'll go back to last night.........

Joy, not sure how the union of the two churches is going to be honest. Haven't heard anything about it for ages. Mind you, these things can't be done overnight .


I can only speak for the C. of E. these days, but I know that anyone putting themselves forward for Ministry, has to undergo a lot of training. When they are first accepted for training, they have a choice (on advice), as to which college to go to.

Those who are of a 'low church' persuasion will go to a college which follows in that tradition, whilst those of a more 'catholic' leaning, will go to one which caters for that wing of the church.

I guess that, although I am happy enough about ecumenism, I do rather prefer the 'catholic' way of worship. Strange coming from one who was brought up in the Salvation Army........ :-D


John, I really don't have a 'leadership' role.....I just help out as and when required. That said, anyone who is involved with children in any way, has to undergo CRB training and have a CRB check.


Hi Ruby, I used to love it when my last church ran 'house groups' as it meant a lovely evening with nice people and you learned something into the bargain! They were always lead by the vicar though.

This is where I tend to be very, very careful before giving an opinion on anything Scriptural.

Over the years, I have heard so many people say......"I think this" or "I think that" and it's simply their own interpretation on Scripture......and it may right, or it may be way off course! That's why I tend to go for the tried and trusted explanations which have stood the test of time.


As far as Paradise is concerned, there are various views on the subject but, basically, the word is used in terms of ' future bliss, contentment, harmony' - that sort of thing.

The word appears only about three times in the NT and has been variously interpreted by scholars - who have, like Ruby, speculated between a terrestrial and a heavenly paradise. So, although one may have their theories on the subject, no one knows.......until...................


As for the thoughts on the resurrection of the dead, we have a book on the Letters to the Thessalonians...written by a much respected theologian - the late William Barclay.

Here, he is talking about Paul's answer to those who despair of death.

'Paul's answer lays down a great principle. If a man has lived in Christ and died in Christ, even if he is dead he is still in Christ and he will rise in Christ. This means that between Jesus Christ and the man who loves Him there is a relationship which nothing can break.

It is a relationship independent of time; a relationship which overpasses death.

William Barclay then goes on to say.....

The picture which Paul draws of the day when Christ will come is poetry. It is an attempt to put into words what is inexpressible and to describe what is indescribable.

(then there is a description of the picture - chariots in the sky etc.) and he continues:

We are not meant to take with crude and insensitive literalism that which is a seer's vision.

Like Rose, I believe in keeping things as simple as possible and, for me, this finale statement from William Barclay says it all...

It is not the details which are important. What is important is that in life and in death the Christian is in Christ, and that is a union which nothing can break.

John and Cynthia,

Thank you both for your answers. I try hard to understand what the bible is telling me, but realize there can be many interpretations. I like to dig into a piece of scripture until it makes sense to me, and then I can simplify it in my mind, so that it registers - hopefully.

Thanks again,
Ruby.

Joy ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ :-D :-D

Did see your post and it was extremely interesting. Just didn't feel I had anything very useful to add. Forgive me please. I was amazed recently to discover that I was baptised in Swan Bank Congregational (or URC). My family was 100% Methodist nearly - and just assumed I would have had a Methodist baptism. But was quite pleased - even though I have no idea where Swan Bank is and why I was sprinkled there :-)

Cynthia. Lovely post. You are so modest about what you do in your church, I think.

The creed we all recited (Methodists, Anglicans, Baptists, RC, URC) when we were young always said "hell". It meant somewhere horrible, hot and smelly. I notice now it seems non pc to say hell - we have to say Hades. But there is no difference to me - still same terrifying place. :-( :-(

Hell is a short and easy word for what was meant in the Bible. Hell is mentioned by Jesus a few times.

I had a friend in my last church who I thought was quite a good Christian man, but he believed very little of the Bible. He would say things like "the Old Testament is fanciful, Paul is too judgmental, Revelation is wild and woolly. I only look at the Gospels and Acts". He even narrowed it down further - his Bible was Matthew Chapters 5, 6 and 7 - the Sermon on the Mount. He thought the sermon was very comfortable and soothing.

I agree it is a great place to start if you have never read much of the Bible. Though it is probably the hardest teaching in the whole Book. Take these verses (KJV): " Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

The word Raca was an Aramaic word for fool - but was less serious than the word translated as "fool" into English. You would need to get into the Greek text to see the nuances of meaning between the words "Raca" and "fool".

There were 3 capital punishments available to the Jews under Roman occupation (crucifixion could only be authorised by the Roman Governor):
1. Beheading
2. Stoning (which could only be applied by Jewish ruling council - the Sanhedrim)
3. Burning the criminal is the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, which was where all rubbish was burnt in the valley outside Jerusalem city gates.

Hell fire is a translation of the fires in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, I believe.

Jesus certainly meant his remarks to frighten the life out of his hearers, imo. :-0

Edit at 1736 23/4/13 Sorry, folks. I was asked not to preach. Will try to be quiet for a couple of days at least :-(

Thank you, Rose. :)
x

An acknowledgement would have been courteous, John, to show you had seen my post to you; even a "that's interesting, Joy, thank you", perhaps.

My husband's training took three years at Sarum, whilst he was still working as a university lecturer.

Signed ... Anglican, that worked for The Salvation Army from 1989 until 2007.

:-)

As one who has never used the word Hades in place of the word Hell, and who has moved away from the concept of fire and brimstone, I prefer the way modern theologians generally describe Hell.

'Hell is the logical consequence of the soul using it's free will to reject being united with God. As God is full of justice and mercy, he will not interfere with the soul's free choice.'

Happy Sunday and new week to everybody.

Just a reminder that Ascension Day is Thursday 9th May and Pentecost (Whit Sunday) is celebrated on Sunday 19th May.

Hope today gives you a blessing and strengthens you, whether in church, at home or wherever. :-) :-)

The beginning of a new week indeed.....and what a beginning for my vicar.


When I arrived at church this morning, the place was 'buzzing' with news! It seems as though the vicar's car had been stolen overnight....... :-(


As things turned out, it had been badly vandalised, and taken away for analysis. There had also been some damage to his wife's car and some garden ornaments and fencing.

Don't know what it was all about, but the police say that they have the perpetrator in custody. The Vicarage is on a main road but set back a bit so it looks as the whoever did it was caught in the act. There should also be some camera footage of the incident. The thing is, he has only had the car about 2 weeks :-( :-( :-(

Despite all this excitement, the service continued as usual, :-)


Our lady Lay Reader in training did the sermon and she was good. She spoke about love - taken from the gospel reading. In essence, she asked....do we REALLY love people as we are supposed to as directed by Jesus, or are we choosy?

She talked about garden centres, and how easy it is to mistake silk flowers for real flowers. Do other people see us as genuine Christians, or do we come over as artificial - like those silk flowers? Some good thoughts there. :-)

We seemed to have a lot of children in this morning, several of whom were in fine voice...the bags and books I organise for them certainly came in handy :-D :-D



I had another wedding album left for me - all to do with the Wedding Fayre I am involved in later in the year. I am borrowing albums and scanning a couple of photos ready for a display of pictures of weddings over the years - especially those which were held at our church.

It's brilliant looking at the fashions....the bride's father who had a 'butterfly' collar on his shirt.....the waistcoats and fob watches and the ladies who were wearing very sensible hats with a flower stuck on the front....... :-)

It's striking as to how 'modest' the bridal dresses were in those days - unlike now when they hardly have any backs to them and not much front either..... ;-)

Good to see you posting on here Cynthia - and plenty of food for thought too

An interesting thought provoking post Cynthia....I can't say that I love everyone as I should but perhaps we try hard to care. It doesn't always work and is sometimes in retrospect.....the thought is there though, so that's a start :-D