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I am sorry I marked my original post as answered whhich appears not to have given Rambling Rose the credit for this research - I do apologise as there doesnt seem to be any way to change this. It should be possible to highlight more than one answer :-(

Thanks safc :-)

this is the bertie from the 1912 residence

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
28 Blackheath Hill, Greenwich, London, England

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Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Occupation Age Birth year Birth place
Berte Harknett Head Married Male Dairyman 29 1882 London Brixton
Transcription
Amy Harknett Wife Married Female - 28 1883 London Walworth
Transcription
Constance Harknett Daughter - Female - 3 1908 London Peckham
Transcription
Bertie Harknett Son - Male - 1 1910 London Herne Hill

I don't have access, but perhaps someone could check out the following on Ancestry? 1912/13/14

London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965
CENSUS & ELECTORAL ROLLS
NAME: Bertie Hartnett
RESIDENCE: 1912 - city, England

Worth looking into Clive I think and will be interesting to see if you can find out more. Still haven't managed to find anything for Bertie after the marriage unfortunately.

re 'Jack' it's often used as a diminutive form of John, as well as a name in it's own right.

I expect you have seen this but just in case, the reg for Phyllis' birth on freebmd.org.uk has the following

"Births Sep 1910
HARTNETT Phyllis Lambeth 1d See S 38 dgfend
This entry appears to be a late entry referring to the following
Births 1938 Sep: Hartnett,Phyllis,Lambeth,1d,376 "

Thank you very much for all this work - what you say about the name makes a lot of sense and interestingly I know that my grandmothers mothers family owned property in Portsmouth. In fact I have already discovered that my Great Grandmother lived in Portsmouth for a while with her son Thornton who took his law exams there - if he was studying in Portsmouth then it is quite conceivable that Ethel would have visited her mother there for some of the time and met and married said Bertie. I can even imagine that the first John you mention (Hendon district is plausible) could well have adopted the nickname Jack having come from Portsmouth (Jolly Jack Tar) and my recolections of if and when I met him as a child are shakey to say the least.

Of course I have learned not to get excited to quickly but these are the most promising leads that I have so far. One thing that rings true is that my mother berated her brother for having sold a terrace of houses in Portsmouth that he inherited. They were destroyed in the war and he sold the land for peanuts without realising that there would have been compensation after the war. The more I think about this it is possible that Bertie Hartnetts family may have owned some houses and rented on to to my great grandmother and her son.

I will follow this up and let you know what success I have with it

There was 1 match for this search!

Baptism: 6 May 1877 St Mary of the Assumption, Burnley, Lancashire, England
Joannes Thomas Hardnett - filius Joannis Hardnett & Mary (formerly Talbot)
Born: 20 Mar 1877
Godparents: Joannes Gulvey; Rosanna Clemens
Baptised by: J. Morrissey
Register: Baptisms 1866 - 1881, Page 459, Entry 91
Source: Original Register

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1877
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
HARTNETT John Thomas Burnley Preston TABB BU/116/30

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First name(s) JOHN THOMAS
Last name HARTNETT
Marriage quarter 3
Marriage year 1901
Registration month -
MarriageFinder™ JOHN THOMAS HARTNETT married one of these people
EMILY A GOULDING, CECILIA CHARLOTTE KNOTT
District PORTSMOUTH
District number -
County Hampshire
Country England
Volume 2B
Page 1103
Record set England & Wales marriages 1837-2008
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Marriages & divorces
Collections from Great Britain

England & Wales deaths 1837-2007 Transcription
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First name(s) EMILY A
Last name HARTNETT
Gender Female
Birth day -
Birth month -
Birth year 1877
Age 54
Death quarter 3
Death year 1931
District PADDINGTON
County London
Volume 1A
Page 52
Country England
Record set England & Wales deaths 1837-2007
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Deaths & burials
Collections from Great Britain

Emily's probate can be seen at https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills

wife of John Thomas Hartnett probate to J T Hartnett jeweller
address 8 Tavistock Road Paddington...does that sound likely?

This is the closest I can find for a death for John T, but it is different to the date you give for 'Jack'?


First name(s) JOHN T
Last name HARTNETT
Gender Male
Birth day -
Birth month -
Birth year 1877
Age 85
Death quarter 4
Death year 1962
District HENDON
County Middlesex
Volume 5E
Page 594
Country England
Record set England & Wales deaths 1837-2007
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Deaths & burials
Collections from Great Britain

1881 for John T

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
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First name(s) John Thomas
Last name Hartnett
Relationship Son
Marital status Single
Gender Male
Age 4
Birth year 1877
Occupation Scholar
Birth town Burnley
Birth town as transcribed BURNLEY
Birth county Lancashire
Birth county as transcribed LANCASHIRE
Birth place England
House name Burnley Barracks
Street Westgate Habergham Eaves
Town -
Parish Habergham Eaves
County Lancashire
Country England
Registration district Burnley
Archive reference RG11
Piece number 4156
Folio 101
Page 5
Record set 1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Category Census, land & surveys
Subcategory Census
Collections from Great Britain
© Findmypast

With him are mother Mary from Portsmouth and father John, a private soldier from Limerick Ireland.

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
16, Cottage Grove, Portsmouth, Hampshire, England

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Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Mary Hartnett Head Widow Female 54 1847 - Portsmouth, Hampshire, England
Transcription
John T Hartnett Son Single Male 24 1877 Watchmaker Burnley, Lancashire, England
Transcription
Bertie Hartnett Son Single Male 18 1883 Auctioneers Clerk Portsmouth, Hampshire, England

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
High Street, Portsmouth, Portsea Island, Hampshire, England


Alfred John Martin Head Widower Male 60 1831 Tailor Dover, Kent, England
Mary Hartnett Housekeeper Widow Female 41 1850 Housekeeper Portsmouth, Hampshire, England
Bertie Hartnett Housekeepers Son - Male 9 1882 - Portsmouth, Hampshire, England

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
16, Cottage Grove, Portsmouth, Hampshire, England


Mary Hartnett Head Widow Female 54 1847 - Portsmouth, Hampshire, England Transcription
John T Hartnett Son Single Male 24 1877 Watchmaker Burnley, Lancashire, England <<<<<< Brother Jack ?
Bertie Hartnett Son Single Male 18 1883 Auctioneers Clerk Portsmouth, Hampshire, England

?

Births Mar 1882 (>99%)
Hartnett Bertie Portsea 2b 462

Marriages Jun 1906 (>99%)
Hartnett Bertie Portsmouth 2b 1216
Jones Ethel Grace Portsmouth 2b 1216

I think it would be worth considering that his name was not Herbert, if he had already disappeared at the time of your mother's marriage then it might have been guessed as Herbert , as the reasonable assumption from Bertie? but Bertie is a name in it's own right and could also be Albert, or Bertram at a stretch?

Ethel Hartnett was correctly listed as a wife but she was not the wife of the head of household. My grandfather had disappeared some years earlier

I think I have most of those records - none of them mention the father Herbert Hartnett - the Harry Jones listed in the 1911 census as head of household is not my grandfather - the name is wrong as is the age - it is extremely unlikely that someone with haemophillia in that period would live to see 55.

I had not however saved the 1939 register which shows that my father was lodging with my mothers family before they married and that by then my great grandfather had died. So thanks for finding that one.

Herbert Hartnett however seems as much a mystery as before

ancestry version
1911

ame: Harry Jones
Age in 1911: 55
Estimated birth year: abt 1856
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Esh, Chester, England
Civil Parish: Battersea
Search Photos: Search for 'Battersea' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 58 Stanley St, Battersea
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: RETRIED BOOT DEALER
Registration district: Wandsworth
Registration District Number: 26
Sub-registration district: East Battersea
ED, institution, or vessel: 35
Piece: 2178
Household Members:
Name Age
Harry Jones 55
Ethel Hartnett 29
Roland Hartnett 3
Phyllis Hartnett 0

1939 Register Transcription

Hartnett Household (4 People) 61 Mandrake Road , Wandsworth, London, England
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First name(s) Last name(s) DOB Sex Occupation Marital status Schedule Schedule Sub Number
Ethel (G) Hartnett 27 Jul 1883 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 174 1
Phyllis Richards (Hartnett) 04 Sep 1910 Female Cashiers Clerk Single 174 2
George E Richards 28 Mar 1912 Male Carpenter & Joiner Single 174 3
Hope Jones 15 Aug 1856 Female Invalid Widowed 174 4