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Hi can anyone out there help me as I have been going around in circles for sometime.

My g-grandfather was William Lacey 1865c he Married Annie Dempsey,
They had 2 children that I know of William John 1895 and Daniel 1913.

I cannot find anything further back on either of them.

When I was young I can remember my father saying they had changed their name but from what I do not know and have no one to ask. I can only assume that maybe it was from Jewish heritage.
I am assuming that William was from the Bermondsey area and as far as I am aware Annie came from Ireland,

I would really appreciate any help or direction anyone can help me with

Thank you so much in advance :-)

could be him near bermondsey


William Lacey
England and Wales Birth Registration Index
Name William Lacey
Event Type Birth Registration
Registration Quarter Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration Year 1865
Registration District Rotherhithe
County London
Event Place Rotherhithe, London, England
Volume 1D
Page 630
Line Number 42

or if he had middle name


William George Lacey
England and Wales Birth Registration Index
Name William George Lacey
Event Type Birth Registration
Registration Quarter Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration Year 1865
Registration District Bermondsey
County London
Event Place Bermondsey, London, England
Volume 1D
Page 64
Line Number 37

Hi Elaine

When and where did the marriage take place?

I can see a marriage to an "Emma" Dempsey in 1890

William Lacey in the London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
Name:William Lacey
Spouse:Emma Dempsey
Record Type:Banns
Event Date:5 Jan 1890
Parish:All Saints, Walworth
Borough:Southwark
Register Type:Parish Register

Is it your tree on ancestry that has these records for the family? Where is Willam John and there are other children named on these?


1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Wolseley Model Dwelling, 131, Bermondsey, St Olave Southwark, London, England

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Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
William Lacey Head Married Male 29 1872 Printers Labourer Bermondsey, Surrey, England
Transcription
Annie Lacey Wife Married Female 27 1874 - Bermondsey, Surrey, England
Transcription
Thomas Lacey Son - Male 4 1897 - Bermondsey, Surrey, England
Transcription
James Lacey Son - Male 3 1898 - Bermondsey, Surrey, England
Transcription
George Lacey Son - Male 0 1901 - Bermondsey, Surrey, England
Transcription
Annie Lacey Daughter - Female 10 1891 - Bermondsey, Surrey, England



1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Curlew Street, Horsleydown, St Olave Southwark, London, England

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Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
William Lacey Head Married Male 20 1871 Printers Labourer - Brighton Rotten Dean
Transcription
Annie Lacey Wife Married Female 19 1872 - Bermondsey
Transcription
Julia Dempsey Boarder - Female 12 1879 - Bermondsey


What exactly do you know bout the family? Are you descended from William John and perhaps have his Marriage Certificate?

If so, what exactly does it say on it please?


I see the tree also has the marriage that PricklyHolly has found.

Thank you all for your help

alviegal yes that is on my tree but only attached so I don't loose it, I do not think there were any other children but I am not sure so as such it is not my family at this time. *quite sad as they were in a workhouse at one point)
Yes William John is my grandfather, on his birth certificate his mother is Annie and father William. I will search though the papers I have again but I don't think I have his marriage certificate.
I think that Annie was possibly born in Bermondsey and I think that her father was Malachi and mother Julia Connor and they came from Cork in Ireland

malyon - I think he may well be one of these two if I could match him to Annie somehow,

The plot thickens, as we all know the place of birth on the census is invariable incorrect.

Possibly Ann(ie) Lacey nee Dempsey's birth ??:

Births Jun 1872 (>99%)
Dempsey Ann St. Olave 1d 197

And maybe sister Julia, as in 1891 census ??

Births Jun 1878 (>99%)
Dempsey Julia St. Olave 1d 221

There's this marriage record, but haven't investigated which man married which woman.
If this William married this Annie, and if they are "your" couple, then they were unmarried in the 1891 and 1901 censuses above.

EDIT: There are an Edmund and Florence Purdin in London in 1911, married 8 years, so it may be that William married Annie.


Marriages Dec 1902 (>99%)
Dempsey Annie St. Olave 1d 556 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Jordan Florence Sarah A St. Olave 1d 556
LACEY William St. Olave 1d 556 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Purdin Edmund St. Olave 1d 556

Looks like the same family as in 1891 & 1901, though says William was born Brighton c1872. Married c19 years, so not the 1902 couple. Marriage could have been in Ireland - though earlier censuses say Annie was born Bermondsey..

William Robert Lacey
in the 1911 England Census

Name: William Robert Lacey
Age in 1911: 39
Estimated birth year: abt 1872
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Brighton, Sussex, England
Civil Parish: Bermondsey
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 40A Marine Street, Bermondsey
Marital Status: Married
Years Married: 19
Estimated Marriage Year: 1892
Occupation: PRINTERS LABOURER <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Registration district: St Olave (Bermondsey)
Registration District Number: 24
Sub-registration district: Bermondsey
ED, institution, or vessel: 37
Piece: 1905
Household Members:
Name Age
William Robert Lacey 39
Annie Lacey 37 - born Ireland
James Lacey 13
George Lacey 11
Julia Lacey 7
Mary Lacey 2


All children born London.


EDIT:
Can't see a William Robert birth in Brighton.

I dont think it was the William Robert Lacey, so would assume that my grandfather was born illegitimate and his parents were married in 1902 - no wonder I have problems finding them ;-)

I would say the family in 1911 are the same as in 1901 and 1891 - but with birthplace and year discrepancies..
James and George's YOB's match.

Perhaps when William said they'd been married approx. 19 years, he meant they'd been together 19 years, but said married for respectability.

BUT I can't see William John anywhere in 1901 or 1911, either with that family or anywhere else.

You mentioned a rumoured change of name.
I wonder, IF that's the right family in the censuses, perhaps he was fostered or adopted because of being illegitimate, but reverted to the name Lacey later ? Just a hypothesis.

Or perhaps it's a completely different family - maybe he was with his parents under a different surname, and only reverted to his birth surname when he married.

Marriages Dec 1898 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------
Bryan John St. Olave 1d 636
DEMPSEY Julia St. Olave 1d 636
DUNCOMBE Alfred St. Olave 1d 636
Hutchins Annie St. Olave 1d 636

Deaths Jun 1961 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------
DUNCOMBE Julia 83 Wandsworth

(if above relate, could be her Burial on below)

Burial Register summary
Duncombe Julia
Burial date 12 May 1961
Authority London Borough of Southwark
Location Camberwell New Cemetery (Southwark)

https://www.deceasedonline.com/

Chris :)

(recently added)

London Borough of Southwark

The London Borough of Southwark is located in South East London. They manage Nunhead Cemetery, Camberwell Old Cemetery and Camberwell New Cemetery and Honor Oak Crematorium. Servicing a large area of South East London running down from the river Thames to South Dulwich. Covering Borough, Bermondsey, Rotherhithe, Walworth, Peckham, Camberwell, Peckham Rye, Nunhead, Honor Oak and Dulwich.

All of the burial records for all of these sites from the time they opened are available to search on Deceased Online. There are records for 700,000 people. The oldest records dating back to 1840 and most recent record being displayed are currently 2011.

I know this is wrong area, but putting up just in case:

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
99, Wood Street, Grimsby, Great Grimsby, Lincolnshire, England

William Shreeve Head Married Male 30 1871 Fisherman Rollesby, Norfolk,
Charlotte L Shreeve Wife Married Female 29 1872 - Manningtree, Essex,
Elijah Proom Father-In-Law Married Male 52 1849 Dock Labourer Essex,
William J Lacey Nephew Single Male 7 1894 - Grimsby, Lincolnshire,

British Army Service Records 1914-1920 Transcription

George Lacey
Service number T/29756
Regiment Royal Army Service Corps
Unit / Battalion 16th Company
Event year 1921
Age 21
Birth year 1900
Birth town Bermondsey
Birth county Surrey
Series WO 364
DOB: 28 Feb 1900
Next of Kin: Father, William, 29 Hock? Street, Bermondsey, London
Address on discharge: 32 Vauban Street, Spa Road, Bermondsey

London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965 (Ancestry)

1921
(a William John Lacey, with Alfred and Julia Duncombe, 13, Melon Road, Southwark, Camberwell)

Chris :)

My grandfather William John was born on 25/10/1895 and baptised in the November , I have the records for this so not the one listed in Grimsby but thank you Gritty.

I can only assume that either my father's throw away line of we were originally ???????? and then changed our names, may have been more than a jest and borne some truth further back in the family or of course there is the possibility that they came from Ireland as well.
Unfortunately my father's family were not known for their longevity and there has been no one to ask for some time now.

I should change my name to 'always clutching at straws' as I have two lines of the family tree that just stick and send me around in circles.

Thanks so much for everyones help on this

Would try that 1902 Marriage posted, perhaps Banns were read 1889/1890 and Marriage couldn't take place, for some reason!...

Chris :)

The Army Service record for George would appear to be correct- address of father was hard to read, but was indeed Flockton Street:

London, England, Electoral Registers
1919
29 Flockton Street
Annie Lacey
William Lacey

Listed the same in 1923 & 1924

In 1920 there is also a James Lacey at the address.

London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965
1926
49 Old Bromley Road, Lewisham
William Robert Lacey
Annie Lacey

1935
49 Old Bromley Road, Lewisham
William Robert Lacey
Annie Lacey
Daniel Lacey
----------------------------------------

Death:
First name(s) WILLIAM R
Last name LACEY
Gender Male
Birth year 1873
Age 70
Death quarter 2
Death year 1943
District LEWISHAM
County London
Volume 1D Page 734