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we know ellen coombs born 1885 was her mother who married a harry bowns but we cannot confirm what my grandmothers real name was .....irene ellen or ellen irene so therefore not sure if she was born in salisbury or swindon in wiltshire great grandfather was francis coombs born 1854 . Ellen irene or irene ellen married in 1932 to james keen but it is ellen irene(irene ellen we are trying to findo out more about can anyone help

just to be clear here

Ellen Coombs was 'her' mother ... the mother of Irene Ellen or Ellen Irene ... Bowns ?

if you can add spaces when you post between lines to separate thoughts since you aren't using punctuation it will really help to sort out what you are saying ... just type the 'enter' key twice to start a new line / thought

do you know when Ellen Coombs married Harry Bowns ... have you found their marriage at freebmd ?

http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl

Carol - how was her name recorded on her marriage certificate in 1932?

When was Ellen/Irene born?

Married as Irene E

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Dec 1932 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coombs Irene E- Keen Swindon 5a 57
Keen James H - Coombs Swindon 5a 57

Marriages Dec 1915
Bowns Harry Coombs Swindon 5a 82
Coombs Ellen Bowns Swindon 5a 82

with two births

Births Jun 1916
Bowns Charles C / Coombs Swindon 5a 35
Births Sep 1918
Bowns / Coombs Swindon
[ name deleted because it seems this person is still living from info below ]


when was Ellen / Irene born ? was it before the marriage ?

Name: Irene Ellen Keen
>> Birth Date: 6 Aug 1908
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1975
Age at Death: 67
Registration district: Swindon
Inferred County: Wiltshire
Volume: 23
Page: 2076

born well before the marriage

Name: Ellen Irene Coombs
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1908
Registration district: Salisbury
Inferred County: Wiltshire
Volume: 5a
Page: 179


she was born to her mother when her mother was unmarried and her birth was registered in her mother's surname, and she married under that surname


1911 census

COOMBS IRENE ELLEN 1909 2 Wilton Wiltshire

living with

WEEKS ALMA ANN 1878 33
WEEKS EDWIN 1876 35
WEEKS HARRY JAMES 1906 5
WEEKS IRENE EMMA ROSE 1910 1

sorry for the speed of writing as my father is here with me trying to sort it out for him.
her grandfather was francis coombs 1854.
mother ellen coombs born 1885 and married to harry bowns after irene ellen was born,
we are trying to find out where irene ellen was born salisbury or swindon and any other information as we believe there is a story as to who her father was and where she was brought up. her mother was workjing at wilton house as a domestic, cook. but it is getting confusing as we seem to be getting two people mixed up and cant be sure if she was born irene ellen or ellen irene in 1907/1908
thanks to everyone

" great grandfather was francis coombs born 1854 " ........

So is he Irene's father ?
Is Irene a Coombs or a Bowns or perhaps her mother's maiden name ?


Confused because there are births for Bowns/Coombs, but Coombs wouldn't have been Ellen's maiden name if she was married to Francis Coombs.

Going for a lie down now !!

crossed in the post :-)

check my post above yours ... that is her birth and that is the family she was living with in 1911

I don't have paid access to the 1911 census but someone who does will be able to tell what it says for her relationship with that family

what is it that is mixed up, is there another possible birth besides the one I posted ? only the birth certificate will say for sure who the parents or mother was and what the birthdate was ( to match the death certificate )

the one I posted is the only birth for Irene Ellen or Ellen Irene in Wiltshire in the jul-aug-sep quarter of 1908

did she name a father on her marriage certificate ?


Mike as I understand it

Francis Coombs 1854
is the father of
Ellen Coombs 1885
who is the mother of
Irene/Ellen Coombs Keen 1908

No she had no name mentioned on marriage certificate of father and we know that her mum married harry bowns after her birth. We cant seem to find the link between wilton house and her moving to swindon and then uffington in oxon.what happened to her during her childhood ie where was she living and was it with her mum when she was little?.there was a record for a irene ellen born in swindon around that time and we dont want to get them mixed up.
thanks

So Francis is Ellen's dad, making him your Great Great Grandfather not your Gt. grandfather.

The info you give is all we can work on so it's important to state relationships correctly.


So this must be Ellen

Births Jun 1885
Coombs Ellen - Wilton 5a 203

and this is one possible for Irene/Ellen
Where did you find one for Swindon ?

Births Sep 1908
Coombs Ellen Irene - Salisbury 5a 179

sorry,
The problem with all this is that we have an ellen coombs whose father is francis.
Then we have ellens daughter who is irene ellen or ellen irene. She is my grandmother.
It is ellen born in 1885 who worked as a domestic at wilton house apparently according to family stories, who had a daughter (my grandmother) out of wedlock and it is her story we are trying to unravel. all we know is her mother married harry bowns after her birth and they moved to swindon at some point and then nan moved to uffington when she was married to james henry keen in 1932 and died there also in 1975. it is another family member who was told irene/ellen was born in swindon but she said she doesnt know who told her and so we dont know what is true. it is all stories and no hard facts.

Perhaps the 1911 confirms Chrissie's theory?

WEEKS, Edwin Head Married 7 years M 35 1876 Shepherd On Farm Broadchalke Wilts
WEEKS, Alma Ann Wife Married 7 years F 33 1878 Broadchalke Wilts
WEEKS, Harry James Son M 5 1906 Bishopstone Wilts
WEEKS, Irene Emma Rose Daughter F 1 1910 Bishopstone Wilts
COOMBS, Irene Ellen Nurse Child F 2 1909 Salisbury
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Registration District: Wilton
Sub District: Bishopstone
Enumeration District: 6
Parish: Bishopstone

Address: Netton St Bishopstone Salisbury County: Wiltshire

To make sure of facts you need some certificates.

Incidently ... I can't see any birth for Irene Ellen at that time, only the one for Ellen Irene.

It was very common for people to be known by their middle names.
I know I only found out the real chrsitian names of my cousins recently, all 6 of them had been known by their middle names all their lives.

Thank you to all of you trying to help.
I think you could be right Mike as we are finding this name thing very confusing. everyone seems to be using different names..
What is a nurse child? is it that someone took her in because her mother could not look after her? i wonder who this couple were who gave her a home and why they would do such a thing. Irene/ellen (nan) has a half sister still alive but she is not saying anything and too old to question further and we certainly dont want to upset her but my father too is getting older and wants to unravel his history so thank you again to all

Mike, I posted the birth for Ellen Irene Coombs 1908, it is obviously the right one, you are kind of confusing matters here

and I posted the 1911 census showing her with a foster family, Marie Celeste has posted the details

a 'nurse child' is a foster child, probably paid a fee by a public authority to care for the child

( if the family was related it would probably just say 'niece' or 'relation' rather than 'nurse child', by 1911 'nurse child' suggests a formal placement ... but it could have been a placement by the mother who paid the foster parents a fee )

you should get the 1908 birth certificate, there is almost no chance it will say anything about her father, but you will want to have it at least to see what it says about mother Ellen

for info this is the marriage of the foster parents in the 1911 census

Marriages Mar 1904
Poole Alma Ann Wilton 5a 283
Weeks Edwin Wilton 5a 283

so they don't seem to be related


you mention a 'story' about Ellen Irene's father ... perhaps that he was a member of the well to do household where her mother worked ? ( it certainly happened, my great-grandmother's first child's 'father' was the son of her employer )

in that case it could be that the father was contributing to the upkeep of the child by paying the foster parents a regular fee, if mother Ellen was not in a position to do that

ok thanks it is making more sense now. Rumours have been spoken about Blue blood! ha ha who knows. I think it was fairly commonplace in days gone by of the mother being unable to care for their child although at least we know her mum had her with her when she was married, so they were reunited, sad but i guess thats the way it was. maybe lord wilton had a son who was keen on the servant girls or maybe it was just two young people who got it wrong or were unable to care for the child although i think if that was the case fathers name would of been mentioned somewhere.
ok that is my lot for tonight as it is a lot to discover. thank you for your help in unlocking a few answers for us
Good night and god bless

the family at Wilton House was Sidney Herbert, Earl of Pembroke and Montgomery

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_of_Pembroke

and his wife and son Reginald

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reginald_Herbert,_15th_Earl_of_Pembroke

( cover your ears when you read that one, it's quite vulgar in fact ! )

Reginald Herbert, 15th Earl of Pembroke and 12th Earl of Montgomery (8 September 1880-13 January 1960)[1] was a British peer. He married Lady Beatrice Eleanor Paget (of the marquesses of Anglesey on 21 January 1904 and they had three children: Lady Patricia Herbert (12 November 1904-1994), Sidney, Lord Herbert (9 January 1906-16 March 1969) and The Honourable David Herbert (3 October 1908-3 April 1995). He was succeeded by his eldest son.


so he was married in 1908 ... but you never know

if Ellen Coombs worked at the house she equally likely was involved with one of the other servants of course ( or you never know, another visiting member of nobility ), but the Earl's family might still have contributed to the child's maintenance possibly


this is Ellen in 1901 for info

Name: Ellen Coombe
Age: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1886
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Wilton, Wiltshire, England

Civil parish: St Edmund
County/Island: Wiltshire
Registration district: Salisbury

the household is a large Jackson family, she is a nurse (domestic) ... possibly she took on the same position at Wilton House as there were Herbert children born in the early 1900s ... hopefully Ellen Irene's birth certificate will say her occupation and address