Genealogy Chat

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\I've lost my great-great grandfather JOHN SMOOTHY in 1861 on 1847online. I have found Ann and their first child Elizabeth Louisa living at The Green, Richmond, Surrey. [RG09/460/60 p11] Ann says under occupation 'wife of butler'. But there is no butler in the household. So where is he? I am also puzzled by profession - on 1858 marriage cert he is a 'gentleman's servant'. By 1868 he is parish beadle and running a lodging house at 24 The Green, Richmond. He remains assistant overseer/coroner's officer/vestry messenger for the rest of his life. Can't find ANY John Smoothy/ey/***they on 1837online which fits his description. He was born Chelmsford, Essex 1812. nell nell

Just a thought Nell - were the owners of the house in residence at the time ? If they weren't it could be that he was with them

I am a bit dopey! I checked the household and the Head of house says 'coachman'. I am now thinking perhaps he is a servant rather than the head - but the rest of the household is the coachman's daughter (a dressmaker), my gt gt grandmother and her daughter, and a lodger who says his job is 'fund holder'. I suppose I will have to go back to Richmond and check who owned the house - BUT WHAT IS REALLY ANNOYING is that it just has everyone as The Green, no house names given. Drat and double drat! Thank you for your tip, though. nell

Hello Nell, I think Sheila might be right, on the 1861 census I've also seen a household where the family are away visiting and the 'Butler's wife' has been left without her butler! Sorry I can't be more helpful, but I can at least sympathise! Helen :-)

The Census was taken in springtime so the family at the big house were probably up at their London place and had taken their butler with them. They would probably move back to the country pad for the summer when it got too smelly in the city.

Lovely. Well I can't find Butler Smoothy in London on the 1861 census, so he must be mistranscribed as well as away from his wife. Curses! If only I knew WHO he was working for. I also wonder if it was the same family as when he married and that the reason he went to Richmond is because they went there? I've got him and his wife's baptisms, and I know all about their lives post 1861. But where were they before they married in 1858? No idea. I think she had an illegitimate child that died, but can I find her on a census before 1861 - NO. Thanks for the suggestions, folks. now I need sympathy! nell

Nell, are you sure 'The Green' is the 'big house'. The butler, coachman etc could have all been living in a rented house down the road, not attached to their employer's house in any way, and the butler may be at the big house at the time of the census. May be another long shot - but have you tried looking for him under the name of 'Smithy' (imagine yourself as a hard of hearing ennumerator, and say the name 'Smoothy' with a slight accent!!) maggie

Maggie Hmm - something else to think about - but it still doesn't explain why he isn't indexed? As far as I know The Green was a few large houses and some smaller ones. No. 24 is where John Smoothy lived during the 1860s, and is a listed Georgian building next to a pub where I drank in my youth, oblivious to the family history next door! nell

Jess My heart sinks - there are 79 separate entries for The Green at 3 units a go. I will wait until I get up to the FRC again, I think. Easier to whizz through the whole lot on microfilm. Thanks for the sympathy - I really needed it. nell

Nell, Sorry to be the purveyor of potentially depressing news - but unless you know the house was next to the pub in the 1860's - Beware! House numbers (and road names) changed! My mother's family lived in the same (terraced) house for 99years. When her father and G father were born there it as number 8 R***** Terrace., after the councillor had the hoses built. When Councillor R***** - a not very popular bloke -died, the council quickly incorporated the terrace into the main road. It became 59 A***** Road. A***** Road was bombed during the war and No 59 was demolished, but there is still a number 59 - they just shunted up all the numbers!! Had the same problem at Great Smith Street, London. Apparently my rellies lived in a 3' gap between a pub and the fairley new Trades Union building!! maggie

Jess Sorry, I am totally unable to concentrate this afternoon! I was talking about address search for 1861. Sorry! The move from 24, The Green to Vestry Cottage occurred around 1874/6 [going on evidence from street directories of the time - of course the crucial directory between moves is missing from the Local History collection!] Not sure when The Green (quite definitely The Green) was numbered, I know that it is given as 24 The Green on my great grandfather's birth cert in 1868 - but of course people did move around a bit in the same area. nell

I can't read... have deleted jess

Is there an electoral register you could access? Beth :)

Yes, but it would mean another trip to Richmond - I need to go, so will add to my list of look-ups. Thanks everyone. I know the no. 24 the Green is Ok as it has always been next door to the pub. But I don't know if where Ann & ELizabeth were in 1861 was what is now no. 24! nell