Genealogy Chat

As Marjorie says, London was very difficult to police. However, even in the 1870s, if you fell upon hard times, you would undergo a settlement examination, to establish who was responsible for you. these may not survive in all instances, but there are about 100 volumes for Lambeth at the LMA.

Siobhan London was always a different kettle of fish regarding settlement orders - I think the authorities lost their grip on these fairly early on, it would have been nearly impossible to keep track of newcomers into London. By 1843 the necessity for a Settlement Certificate anywhere had passed because the Poor Law Unions had taken over responsibility for the poor - think it was around 1823????This meant that financial responsibility for the poor was assessed and administered in a different way and no longer fell on the Ratepayers of a particular Parish. It also meant that people were more able to move freely around the country in search of work. I doubt very much if a Settlement Cert exists for your rellie,however, do look on A2A, you never know. They are usually physically kept in the County Records Office to which the person moved. Good luck Marjorie

So if my GGG Grandfather moved from Devon to London sometime between 1841 - 1851 would there be a settlement order for him and if so where would I find it.

Thanks Brenda and Marjorie. At least I have gone back another 7 years with this couple. Mmm - there really is no trace of them in Ketteringham. There are no Selbys at all in the area at that time either. This is a mystery - but I do feel a little bit closer to smashing this one down now. Thank you so much for your help! I am not very good at searching records at the NRO - spend so much time flapping about - but if I stick just to this couple, may be a good day there would turn them up - that would be wonderful.

Hi TC From what you have been saying, it sounds as if the certificate was issued at about the time your Horstead married. That would make sense: a man with a family could be much more expensive than a single man. It would definitely worth your while to look for the marriage very close to the date of the certificate. I had a quick look at NROCAT, and it looks as if there aren't very many examinations for PD 207. Norfolk, just to be different, has Archdeacon's Transcripts for most years, which used to be filed annually, I think by deanery, while the Bishops' Transcripts are only every 6 or 7 years, but do cover the county. When I was looking at them, they arrived in folders or cardboard boxes, but I think they have been microfilmed now. If they have been preserved in this format, it would be much easier to search a whole area for an event.

TC Glad you found something! You have, of course, looked for Removal Orders, predating the settlement order? Or indeed, anything at all re Horsteads (all POSSIBLE spellings!!!) before that date? Good luck Marjorie

Oh blow, you were all right. It does mean from Ketteringham to East Carleton. Cant understand why I cant find them in the records there then. I wonder if they were missed out and may be on the BT?

Brenda, many thanks. I have searched and searched for these two and the earliest I had found them up to this certificate was 1770 when their fourth child was born in Ketteringham. Sorry to be a thicko, what do I glean from this info please? That Ed and Liz were in Ketteringham and then moved to E Carleton? or the other way round? And that Edwards father would be in the same village as that from which Ed moved? Just received this from the records office (arent they brilliant - all for £2!) This is a document from the East Carleton parish deposit, in the Overseers of the Poor section. This document has been microfilmed and the reference is MF/X/251/19. Erm, help please which village would hold the certificate - the one he had moved to?

Hi TC In a perfect world, you are born, married and you die in one place, causing no problems for the parish authorities or the descendants who wish to trace you. Once you start moving, everyone gets excited. The sorts of documents that are created include: Settlement examinations (which establish your place of settlement) Settlement certificates (which entitle you to stay where you are, unless you become a pauper) and Removal Orders (which send paupers back to their place of settlement) The first type is best, because questions are asked to establish place of settlement. Unless you are a bastard, you are born with your father's place of settlement, which may not be where you were born. If you become an apprentice, then your place of settlement changes to where you are working. If you rent property to a certain value, then it can change again, to where that property is. I'm not sure which sort of document you have actually found, but the reference relates to the parish in which the record was kept, so it would be useful to know which parish PD 207 actually is. It looks as if you might have the details to start breaking down this brickwall now. Good luck!

Siobhan, they are a sort of agreement by the parish in which someone was born that if that person moved to another parish and became ill or unemployed or whatever then his first parish would be responsible for him. Basically the place where he was moving to wouldnt want to be paying out poor money to him so he was sent back to where he came from. Am I right girls? Could the first parish not just be a place of birth but his last known residence? Please help me here, this is the first new bit of info since about 2 years ago on this couple!

Oh shame, cos Ive worn out the pages of the Ketteringham Parish Register already.

Can someone explain to me why there would be a settlement order and when did they start doing them and till when. I don't really understand what they are all about. Sorry to sound dumb.

Hi hon Have to agree with Vikki. He moved to East Carleton from Ketteringham. Lou

They have just emailed this details to me: Horstead, Edward and Elizabeth (husbandman) Ketteringham res. East Carleton 4th April 1763 Document ref. PD 207/42 Does this mean he moved to Ketteringham from East Carleton or vice versa please anyone? And does this give me further clues to birthplace/marriage?

As some of you may know (to their increasing boredom) I have been trying for years to find my GGPx4 before they appear in a Norfolk village at the baptism of their 4th child in 1770. Thanks to Marjorie, I have now checked Settlement Orders - woo hoo, found one dated 1763. Have asked the records office to send me a photocopy. What am I likely to glean from this please. Will it give place of birth on there by any chance?