Genealogy Chat

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My in-laws have decided that they are descended from the third Earl of Durham John George Lambton through Charles Herbert Moss illegitimate son of Sarah Moss. This is the family in 1881 census: John MOSS Head M Male 40 London, Middlesex, England Mariner Unemployed Margaret MOSS Wife M Female 32 Hylton, Durham, England Sarah MOSS Daur U Female 17 Sunderland, Durham, England Labourer In Ropery Charles H. MOSS Son Male 1 Sunderland, Durham, England George YOUNG Lodger U Male 47 Sunderland, Durham, England Mariner Unemployed Dwelling 53 Tees Street Census Place Bishopwearmouth, Durham, England Public Records Office Reference RG11 Piece / Folio 4994 / 91 Page Number 61 Apparently Aunt Win doesn’t like to talk about it but has said something about not having the earl to help him out anymore. They decided on this earl as he was about the same age as Sarah. Charles did have a silver christening ring which I think would be a bit posh for this family. However I am highly sceptical but they want to know how to proceed to try and prove their theory. Many Thanks, Pippa

Unless you have the Earl listed as father on the birth certificate, I guess you would have to persuade the current earl to provide DNA for a sample! Alternatively, the records office may have details of any financial payments/maintenance provided. nell

you could send for the earl's will on the offchance that there was a small bequest

Pippa, Tread carefully .... wouldn't want to offend the in-laws now, would we?! Little Nell is quite right, the only sure way would be to do a DNA test, but meanwhile you could have some fun and games rummaging through old family papers .... Maybe someone has written something about it? Can you prove a link - like how would they have met? Definitely get hold of the birth certificate, tho' I suspect there won't be a father's name on it! Had one of these in my line at one stage, proved to be just idle speculation dating from the early 1900s ... tho' there is still some mystery surrounding the birth of this person!! Regs Jane

Well more and more seems to be popping out the wood work now! So we have another story now - the father of Charles Herbert was lost at sea and she might have married his brother! They already have the birth cert - big blank space of course! Sarah married William Jobling and had a daughter Margaret born in 1882 6-9 months after the wedding I think. Somehow Margaret's descendants ended up in Canada. They still think the Earl of Durham had something to do with it. Don't worry about insulting the in-laws - I seem to make a career out of it! Except for Margaret's details on family search I couldn't find anything else. Perhaps there were too many Earls in Durham to go round which is why all these stories have appeared?

If you are not on the Earl of Durham's Family Tree then you will never be able to prove anything unless you persuade the Earl to have a DNA test as has already been suggested! Many a person was born the ' wrong side of the blankets'. Some like the issue of Charles 2 and Nell Gwynne are well documented, though even a few of his may be unknown. It is unlikely the Earl would want to sully his family tree by ever admitting any wrondoing to have occurred! Plenty of stories abound about people being descended from gentry in this way. Practically every other family in the land has a similar story. Proving it is another matter!! Janet

I was reading a Family History book which devoted a whole chapter to the subject of illegitimacy. The Author stated that there were seven degrees of illegitimacy, in the minds of the people at least. Top of the list, as the most acceptable, was poor-but-honest working girl being 'done wrong' by the son of the local Gentry. Hardly anyone voiced any disapproval of this, in fact the girl was considered to have done rather well as the child would almost certainly be provided for, and everyone understood the reasons why someone from the Gentry couldnt marry someone from the working classes. So, if you were young Maudie, or whoever, having to tell your furious parents who the father of your forth-coming child was, then you would probably opt for a son of the gentry, rather than admit it was some passing tinker you met down by the riverbank! Or, even if you DID admit you hadn't a clue who the father was, your parents may very well have told the neighbours it was Lord Wotsit's son, in order to save face. Having said all that, though - sometimes illegitimate children of the gentry were very well cared for, and loved, by their fathers. I think you need to dig around in Wills and any other family documents - any unexpectedly large sums of money or a small house appearing, perhaps? A distant ancestor of mine, Landed Gentry, merrily fathered at least seven illegitimate children, two to the same woman. This woman suddenly acquired a house, a husband and a small income. Her children were sent to school (in the 1600s) and the oldest boy became Estate Steward for his father. Olde Crone

You could try finding out if there are any servants records surviving for the Earl of Durhams household or his parents home to see if she worked for them. George

For what it's worth, the 3rd Earl of D had no children and tried to get a declaration of nullity (if Olde Crone is reading - yes, my speciality LOL) for his ''unfortunate'' marriage to Ethel Elizabeth Louisa Milner. He said she was of unsound mind when they married in 1882. The case was brought in 1885. He lost!! So maybe he was feeling frustrated?? When was your chap born??? Merry

My ancestor had two children by a well to do gentleman. He never married her but certainly she was a comparatively wealthy woman when she died so I feel sure he gave her property to look after the kids The rest of the family were ag labs yet this one lady left a will with property and furniture and a list of thing like silver cutlery plus dosh. Thanks to her there are several headstones for my ancestors in the church yard, all paid for by her and then her daughter - no way would ag labs have been able to do that, so I am grateful for her dalliance.

Sorry just checked my threads and noticed I had some more replies! Charles Moss was born in 1880 - so perhaps he was sowing his wild oats before the marriage? Sarah was a roper as her occupation at the age of 17 so must have 15/16 when she had the little tyke. Apparently a silver watch was given to him from his father which is in Australia now. The plot thickens!

Pippa, It's certainly worth investigating the 3rd Earl a bit more. The reason I'm interested in your story is that there was a persistent legend in one part of my tree that a chap was descended from the Duke of Norfolk. When I checked the Duke's biographical details I discovered the he would have been pretty much on his deathbed (very ill) at the time young George was conceived. AND that his son and heir would have been only 12-14 years old - possible, but not a likely candidate. But still this legend has pervaded the ever-growing group of long lost cousins - who clearly have not colluded with each other as they've only just met. So, I reckon it goes back to one person many years ago - who must have woven this fanciful tale. It was fun researching although we still don't really know who George's father was! Just hope it wasn't OC's 'passing tinker'! Regs Jane