Genealogy Chat

I have received a death certificate and would appreciate help in deciding if it is the right person. See below:

In April I sent for a death certificate for Sarah Cliffe Q4 1858 St Luke district in the hope that it was my 3X gt grandmother. I received it today and can’t make up my mind whether it’s the right person or not. Would the detectives amongst you look at the evidence and give your opinions My 3X gt grandparents Joseph Cliffe and Sarah Furnall married in 1816 in Newington, Surrey. They had 8 children whose baptism places show that the family moved from Southwark to Aldgate, then to Shoreditch and finally to St Luke. Joseph died in 1832 in St Luke, Middlesex In 1851 Sarah Cliffe (or rather Clibbe according to the census!) was a widow aged 54 born Bermondsey, living with her youngest daughter Eliza in St Luke. There don’t seem to be any other Sarah Cliff(e)s in the area in 1851 of similar age. There is no sign of Sarah on the 1861 census, by which time Eliza had married and moved to Shoreditch. The Sarah on the certificate I have received was 63 which fits the age of my Sarah. Her address was different from the 1851 census but then it was 7 years later and my lot seemed to move often from one rented property to another. BUT she is described in the occupation column as “a single woman with no business” The informant was the coroner for Middlesex as an inquest was held (natural death sudden being accelerated by a fall down stairs) Could it be he described her as a single woman because he had no evidence of a marriage? Wouldn’t Eliza , or one of the other children have attended the inquest and let i be known she was a widow – or perhaps as they weren’t present when she died they wouldn’t have been called? I know I’ll probably never be sure but would appreciate your thoughts. Judith

I feel for you, I really do.....we have virtually the same situation with hubby's 3xg-granny. Widowed for decades.....all children vanish (well, from where she is, they do!).......she dies.....they did manage to remember she was the widow of someone.....but no one could remember who! Everthing you have done seems reasonable to me. Have you checked the death address on the following census?? Merry

Good thinking Merry, will do that

Do you have Elizas marriage certificate which would show you whether Joseph was her dad?

Have looked on the 1861 census a) the address where Sarah and her daughter lived in 1851 now occupied by a different family b) the address where the Sarah on the certificate died appears to be a large house with several families occupying it - none of them called Cliffe. Just the sort of place a lone widow would rent a couple of rooms (but equally where a lone singlewoman would live so no help really.)

Hi Heather, yes, in fact have marriage certs of three of the children with Joseph named as father, and Eliza's future husband was obligingly a visitor in the house where both her brother Alfred Cliffe and her married sister Margaret Manley lived in 1851. They even remembered to say father was deceased ,unlike other members of my family who like to confuse me:-)

is the death still in ST Lukes area? If so it's quite likely she'd have been buried by her own church whether her family were around or not so it may be worth checking the parish registers to see if the vicar remembered a little bit more about her Z

Yes the death was in St Luke district. Trouble is by late 1850s church burial grounds were full and so burial would have been elsewhere which means searching for cemetery records. Good idea though - as Alfred and Margaret were both living in Islington and the people at Islington cemetery in East Finchley are very obliging - they have already sent me a list of grave numbers for later burials, perhaps I'll ask them to check if Sarah is buried there.

her own vicar would have done the service tho surely? I've never researched burials that late so it's something I've assumed. Feel free to correct if I'm way off course

He might take the service but it would be recorded in the cemetery burial register not the burial register of St Luke's church. update For example the parish church where I live closed its churchyard at the end of the nineteenth century when a separate cemetery was opened. After that date only a few entries appear in our church burial register - in cases where people were buried in plots already owned by the family. Funerals still take place in church (and are listed in the service record) but the burials happen at the cemetery and that's where they are recorded.

aaaaaaah *puts tail between legs* although thats saved me probably a thousand hours of researching parish registers now. See - five years in and you STILL learn something new everyday Z xx

Zoe, I think it depends on how big a parish it was, and how big the churchyard. Most inner London churches closed their churchyards in the 1850s; outside of London urban areas probably have cemeteries but lots of small parishes are probably still using the churchyard, and so the church burial register would still be the place to look.