Genealogy Chat

I have found the birth of ROBERT CHAPMAN, 1838, and his death in 1916. He was born and lived in Southminster, and registered in Maldon district, I have found him in the 1861 census as a boarder living in Kent, unmarried.

He married Sarah, and their first child, GEORGE, was born in Sheerness in 1864. Two other children were born in the Sheerness district, 1866 and 1867.

The fourth child CHARLES, was registered in the Maldon district having been born in Southminster.

I cannot find a marriage for Robert and Sarah. As these are the grandparents of one of our elderly villagers whoe memories we are recording, it would be great to be able to find their marriage.

Any help gratefully received.

Kathlyn

I can,t see one, but it is possible they didn't marry

I think I will gloss over that Lindsey, and just tell the 95 year old, I was unable to find the marriage.

Thanks for your help.

Kathlyn

Do you have Sarah's surname from a child's birth certificate?

It could help determine whether one of the spouses was already married.

Also it might find a marriage where some element (e.g. page number) has been mistranscribed by FreeBMD or a mistake made in the GRO index.


edit -- in 1851 his father is Henry (cleverly transcribed by Ancestry as Hung) so he isn't the groom in this marriage, per the postem added by a FreeBMD user:

spouse: Robert Chapman
marriage: 18 Feb 1862
groom's Robert Chapman
bride's Hannah Matson
date: 18 Feb 1862
place: Rodmersham, Kent, England
groom's father's name: Charles Chapman
bride's father's name: John Matson
(Q1 1862 Milton reg dist)

PM from Kathlyn, think it's okay to copy here

----------------------------------------------------------

Hi Janey,

Sorry for the delay in replying to your post, but I have to share the computer with "He who thinks he should be obeyed" !!!!!

No I do not have the surname of Sarah, I was hoping to find it from the marriage info. and this gentleman I am researching for is now living in a nursing home so has no access now to certs etc.

I have managed to go fully back on his paternal grandfathers side and fully back on his mothers side, but it would have been nice to have found his paternal grandmothers back ground.

Thanks for your help with this, it was very much appreciated.

Kathlyn

The 1871 census for info

Name: Sarah Chapman
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1837
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Robert Chapman
Where born: Southminster, Essex (as a ditto)

Civil parish: Southminster
County/Island: Essex
Registration district: Maldon

Robert Chapman 31
Sarah Chapman 34
George Chapman 7
Henry Chapman 5
Sarah Chapman 4
Charles A Chapman 1


Next door are

Ann Chapman 62 - born Pembroke, Wales
George Chapman 10 - grandson, born Newport, Wales

1911

CHAPMAN, Robert Head Married M 73 1838 O A Pensioner Southminster Essex VIEW
CHAPMAN, Sarah Wife Married
48 years F 76 1835 O A Pensioner Southminster Essex VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
10188 Reference:
RG14PN10188 RG78PN535 RD196 SD1 ED10 SN316

Registration District:
Maldon Sub District:
Southminster Enumeration District:
10 Parish:
Southminster

Address:
Kings Road Southminster County:
Essex

This one has Robert's residence before marriage as ?Sheerness,(last two letters look like s), father Henry Labourer but Robert is down as a ........ Coppersmith. Witnesses Timothy Heynes and Mary Jones.

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about Robert Chapman Name: Robert Chapman
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1839
Spouse Name: Sarah Franks
Spouse Age: 26
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 28 Jun 1862
Parish: St Jude, Bethnal Green
County: Middlesex
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: Henry Chapman
Spouse Father Name: John Franks

Vera

Sarah Franks looks good -- from the list of Sarahs in 1851 born in Southminster that I happened to have open:

Name: Sarah Franks
Age: 17
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1834
Relation: Servant
Where born: Southminster, Essex, England

Civil parish: Althorne
County/Island: Essex
Registration district: Maldon

Joseph Lime 41
Elizabeth Lime 35
Charlotte Ellis 4
Sarah Franks 17
James Edwards 21
Steven Clarke 36
Joseph Roleston 21
James Rugles 17


1841?

Name: Sarah Ann Franks
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1834
Where born: Essex, England

Civil parish: Waltham Abbey
County/Island: Essex
Registration district: Edmonton

Edward Franks 70 - carpenter
Susannah Franks 70
Mary Ann Franks 30
Sarah Ann Franks 7
Jane Ann Kermole 9

Yeh ... mistranscription ...

Marriages Jun 1862
Chapman Robert Bethnal Gn 1c 580
Rolfe Thomas William Bethnal Gn 1c 580
Scotney Eliza Bethnal Gn. 1c 580

Marriages Jun 1862
Franks Sarah Bethnal Gn 1c x520x

A search of the local index
http://www.thbmd.co.uk/

Search for spouse of Robert CHAPMAN
Result Year Forename Initial Surname Ref Next
1 1862 Robert CHAPMAN /C7 3/55/ Order
2 1862 Sarah FRANKS /C7 3/55/ Order

confirms the pairing Janey wanted. I don't know which church has register code c7.

Amazingly, Sarah Franks's grandparents were still living in 1851.

Name: Edward Franks
Age: 83
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1768
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Susannah Franks
Where born: London, England

Name: Susannah Franks
Age: 81
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1770
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Edward Franks
Where born: Waltham Abbey, Essex, England

Name: Marianna Franks
Age: 46
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1805
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: Edward Franks
Mother's name: Susannah Franks
Where born: Waltham Abbey, Essex, England

Civil parish: Walham Holy Cross
Town: Waltham Abbey
County/Island: Essex
Registration district: Edmonton

Edward Franks 83 - retired carpenter
Susannah Franks 81
Marianna Franks 46 >> unmarried
Hester Paris 17 - servant


Mary Ann / Marianna wouldn't be Sarah's mother, though.


Name: Sarah Franks
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 15 Mar 1835
Baptism/Christening Place: Southminster, Essex, England
> Father's Name: John Franks > matches marriage record
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Franks
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I04647-0
Source Film Number: 1702587
Reference Number: p150 n1198
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975


Kathlyn hasn't seen my last PM -- I just sent another, in which I mistakenly called Franks Sarah's mother's side. It's her father's! so now it's her mother's needs finding.

Name: John Frederick Franks
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 16 Aug 1795
Baptism/Christening Place: Waltham-Abbey, Essex, England
Father's Name: Edward Franks
Mother's Name: Susanna Franks
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I03962-4
Source Film Number: 1526972
Reference Number: item 15
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975


There are several other baptisms of children of that couple as well.

http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html

No marriage for John Franks and Elizabeth though. But there are baptisms of other children of theirs. (I just searchd there for all Franks events in Southminster.)

A long-lived family!

I would think this is probably the right John, rather than the 1795 birth (possibly an older brother who predeceased).


1881

Name: John Franks
Age: 71
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1810
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth Franks
Where born: Southminster, Essex, England
Occupation: Ag Lab

Name: Elizabeth Franks
Age: 70
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1811
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: John Franks
Where born: Tillingham, Essex, England

Civil parish: Southminster
County/Island: Essex
Street Address: Cottage Queen St


The household in 1851 in Southminster:

John Franks 42
Elizabeth Franks 40
George Franks 18
Charles Franks 7
Harriett Franks 4

and in 1861:

John Franks 50
Elisabeth Franks 49
Harriet Franks 4 - daughter
Robert Franks 12

Not just long-lived, but long-fertile!

And this is the household in 1841 in Southminster:

John Frank 30 - ag lab - it says Franks
Elizabeth Frank 28
John Frank 10
George Frank 8
>> Sarah Frank 6
Elizabeth Frank 4
Mariah Frank 1


Oops! Sarah!

I wonder whether there were two Sarahs, or she was visiting her grandparents on census night.


No, the other household is in Waltham Abbey, this one is in Southminster, in 1841 -- this is the right one.

Scratch the above info re Edward and Susannah Franks, I think.


And I think this is the baptism of John, father of Sarah Franks:

Name: John Franks
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 31 Jul 1808
Baptism/Christening Place: Southminster, Essex, England
Father's Name:
Mother's Name: Mary Franks
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I04646-8
Source Film Number: 1702587
Reference Number:
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

... so there we are again -- father's name unknown.

Can I say a very big thank you to all you great people for your help. I am so sorry that I do not come back quickly, but I have to share the computer with "him indoors", and as he needs it for work, I have to just wait.

I have digested all the info. found and it has added to my research for the elderly gentleman. It it a great pleasure doing this research just to see the faces of these 80/90 year olds when I show them the tree the research has built for them.

It also underlines a memory some of them have had re. a rellie who they had forgotten about and this jogs that memory. "I do remember the name Rhoda, but could not place it as being a family member", said one lady.

The tea party we held at the beginning of May for 20 of these residents, was an absolute joy. Although they had all lived in the village since birth, they had not been together en mass for the best part of 50 years.

They made my day.

Thanks again all you wonderful people.

kathlyn