Genealogy Chat

the witnesses on the certificate of david arthur andrews and edith mary payne are amy and george waggett That sounds about right what you say maureeninNY that alice split up with alfred welfare and then cohabited with james austin there isone more bit of jigsaw my grandfather has given the same address 13 link st but he did'nt show up on the 1901census along side edith and the austins xx

Alice in 1911


WELFARE, Alice Mother Married
22 years F 59 1852 London Mile End VIEW
PAYNE, Harry Son Single M 29 1882 Bus Conductor London Clapton VIEW

Registration District:
Hackney Sub District:
North Hackney EnumerationDistrict:
19 Parish:
St John At Hackney

Address:
29 Winshade Road Upper Clapton County:
London




and Alfred Henry Welfare - supports Maureens thought that they had split up




WELFARE, Henry Head Married M 36 1875 Dock Labourer London Clapton VIEW
WELFARE, Mabel Wife Married
5 years F 23 1888 London Shadwell VIEW
WELFARE, Florice Daughter Single F 11 1900 London Clapton VIEW
WELFARE, Henry Son M 3 1908 London Poplar VIEW
WELFARE, Alfred Henry Widower Widower M 70 1841 Pensioner Wales VIEW

Registration District:
Poplar Sub District:
Poplar EnumerationDistrict:
17 Parish:
Poplar Borough

Address:
28 Prestige St Poplar


Deaths Mar 1922 (>99%)
Welfare Alice 70 Hackney 1b 877

Deaths Dec 1925 (>99%)
Welfare Alfred H 82 Hackney 1b 562

It looks to me as though Alice and Mr Welfare may have split up and she's co-habiting with James Austin who is a coachman.

I've seen other marriages where the stepfather's and birth father's details get a little scrambled together.
Who were the witnesses to the marriage??
I'd say Henry George Payne was her father.


(Just my theory!!!)

Maureen

According to the baptism - it would appear her father is Henry George Payne.

His occupation on the marriage certificate is livery coachman and on the baptism is carman - very similar occupations I would think.

Naughty, naughty - Alice Wilson/Payne/Welfare appears on the 1901 census twice!

1901 England Census
about Alfred Welfare
Name: Alfred Welfare
Age: 12
Estimated birth year: abt 1889
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Alfred H
Mother's Name: Alice
Gender: Male
Where born: Hackney, London, England

Civil parish: Hackney
Ecclesiastical parish: St James the Greater
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Hackney
Sub-registration district: North Hackney
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 129
Household Members: Name Age
Alfred H Welfare 61
Alice Welfare 51
Alfred Welfare 12
William Welfare 5

fogot to add that james payne's profession was livery coachman and sorry i must be a bit thick i'm not sure who is edith's true father x

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about Edith Mary Payne
Name: Edith Mary Payne
Record Type: Baptism
Date: 12 Jun 1883
Father's Name: Henry George Payne
Mother's Name: Alice Payne
Parish: St Thomas, Clapton Common
Borough: Hackney
County: London


Address given as Upper Clapton (which matches the 1901 found by Maureen)

Henry's occupation - carman

LOL! Thanks,NinjaLady!

Maureen

Panic not Maureen!!

Marriages Jun 1873 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GIBBS George Frederick M Bethnal Green 1c 573
HOWELL Eliza Bethnal Green 1c 573
>>>>>PAYNE Henry George Bethnal Green 1c 573
>>>>>Wilson Alice Bethnal Green 1c 573

I'd come to the same conclusion.

Now I'm getting confused!!
Name: Alford Henry Welfare
[Alfred Henry Welfare Welfare]
Age: 45
Estimated birth year: abt 1844
Spouse Name: Alice Payne widow
Spouse Age: 37
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 25 Aug 1889
Parish: St James the Great, Hackney
County: Middlesex
Borough: Hackney
Father Name: Henry Welfare
Spouse Father Name: Thomes Wilson

???Marriages Jun 1873 (>99%)
PAYNE Henry George Bethnal Green 1c 573
Wilson Alice Bethnal Green 1c 573

Maureen

So, this is Edith with mother and step-father Alfred Henry Welfare in 1891

1891 England Census
about Alice Welfare
Name: Alice Welfare
Age: 39
Estimated birth year: abt 1852
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: Alfred H
Gender: Female
Where born: Mile End, London, England

Civil parish: Hackney
Ecclesiastical parish: All Souls
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Hackney
Sub-registration district: Hackney
ED, institution, or vessel: 34
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Alfred H Welfare 50
Alice Welfare 39
Theresa Welfare 14
Alfred H Welfare 1
Ellanor Payne 15
Harry J Payne 9
Edith M Payne 8
Edward Payne 5

and the 1881 census takes us back to Alice Payne, with daughter Eleanor and husband Henry G Payne, and not James - which is what you found originally!!

1881 England Census
about Eleanor Payne
Name: Eleanor Payne
Age: 5
Estimated birth year: abt 1876
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Henry G.
Mother's Name: Alice
Gender: Female
Where born: Hackney, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Hackney
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 27 Winslade Road
Education:

Employment status: View image
Occupation: Scholar

Registration district: Hackney
Sub-registration district: Stamford Hill
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Henry G. Payne 33
Alice Payne 29
Eleanor Payne 5

and the death of Henry George


Deaths Jun 1888 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PAYNE Henry George 39 Hackney 1b 294


Why she would have put her father down as James, I have no idea!!

Marriages Sep 1889 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Conway Florence Hackney 1b 714
NEWBY Arthur Charles Hackney 1b 714
>>>>>>>>PAYNE Alice Hackney 1b 714
>>>>>>>>Welfare Alfred Henry Hackney 1b 714
West Florence Hackney 1b 714

For ref:
1901 census transcription details for: 13, Link Street, Hackney
National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG13 Piece: 220 Folio: 150 Page: 49

Reg. District: Hackney Sub District: Central Hackney
Parish: Hackney Enum. District: 26
Ecclesiastical District: St Barnabas City/Municipal Borough:
Address: 13, Link Street, Hackney County: London

AUSTIN, James Head Widower M 52 1849 Coach Man
Essex
AUSTIN, Arthur Son Single M 17 1884 Carper Porter
Clapton
London
AUSTIN, Victor Son Single M 14 1887 Printer's Lad
Clapton
London
WELFARE, Alice House Keeper Married F 49 1852 Housekeeper
Mile End
London
PAYNE, Edith Step Daughter Single F 17 1884 Domestic Servant
Upper Clapton
London
PAYNE, Edward Step Son Single M 15 1886 Greengrocer's Lad
Lordship Pk Mews
London


Maureen

Do you have the certificate?

Sometimes the names of the witnesses can help - they may be family members. It wasn't unusual for my James William Jarrett to be down on the marriage certificates for his children as William James Jarrett - fortunately the witness names helped me to identify the correct marriage even with the wrong father's name!

Does it give an occupation for James Payne? Even though James William Jarrett was often transposed his occupation of engineers labourer also helped identify the correct marriage and helped me find him on the census.

my grandfather david arthur andrews married my grandmother edith mary payne on13th june1901 address 13 link street homerton hackney.i cannot find any info at all on james payne (deceased) father with a daughter edith but i have got henry george payne with a daughter edith who was deceased at the time of the marrage i'm still a learner here and totally confused can anyone please please help from sheila