Genealogy Chat

Thanks for your very generous offer Claire. I will PM you.

Rose

Hi Rose,

I live between Pembroke Dock & Haverfordwest, and would be happy to pop to the Records office for you, just let me know what you need.

By the way BMD's in the Milford Haven area are registered at Haverfordwest if that helps.


Claire xxx

Hi Rose,

I've never really got to grips with the address search on FMP, so found it via the person search. This is how they have listed the address for the 1871 household in their summary:

Prospect Row, Middle, St Mary, Pater, Pembroke

I just dug out the birth cert for James Brown jr born June 1861. They were living at Prospect Row in Pembroke Dock then and also in 1871. Chances are they were also at that address for the 1861 census but I've been unable to find them on Ancestry.

I searched for that address on Findmypast but came up with nothing but it's also showing no hits for that address in 1871 when I know they're there. The address is listed a Middle Prospect Row in 1871. How come Findmypast isn't showing them?

Perhaps I will ask for a Findmypast lookup.

Rose

Thanks Von for your suggestions. I'm in the US so I'll have to look into ordering the films at my local LDS Centre.

Lisa, I have Surrey marriages up until 1837 if you need those at all.

Ivy, thanks for all you hard work. I think James must have married either Anne Richards or Elizabeth Sanders. I was looking for Brown grandchildren living with grandparents in 1861 and got very excited when I found a Mary Ann Brown living with a Richards family. However, I think she was the daughter of Mary Richards.

Thanks to all,

Rose

For the Mar 1853 marriage, one couple is possibly James Oliver, blacksmith of Pembroke, married to Sarah Williams - their oldest child in 1861 is about 7-8 years old.

The other couple may be the second marriage of James Brown b abt 1813, a widower in 1851 with several children. The two youngest are with him, wife Elizabeth and two more children (the elder being 7/8 years old) in 1861.

Given that your James married Mary Evans in the Haverfordwest district, it might be worth opting for the Dec 1855 marriage before trying the other two?

Charles Robert Barney is married to Sarah (Sarah Owens?), so the Dec 1855 marriage may be James Brown to Anne Richards. There is a death registration for an Ann Brown in Mar 1857 in Haverfordwest
[ edit
- but on the other hand there is a birth registration for an Ann Brown in Haverfordwest in Sep 1856
- and yet there is an Ann Brown d of William and Mary Brown aged 4 in 1861 b Milford
- so perhaps the death registration could be your James' first wife?].

For the Dec 1855 marriage, there are 3 grooms and 2 brides. I took a careful look at the index entry, and it seems clear that the page number should be 1195, not 1193. This seems likely since page 1193 has 2 brides and one groom.

Hi Rose,

Taking the narrower question of the possible first marriages, I'd say that the Dec 1856 marriage in Pembroke is more likely to be the marriage of James Brown and Martha living in Pembroke reg dist in 1861 aged 31 and 27 - only on the basis that this was the only James and Martha marriage I could see in Pembroke

(Edit: I did check that George Davies and Mary Arthur, the other spouses marrying in Dec 1856 are also together in Carew in 1861).

Following up on what Von said, when we were trying to find Sussex ancestors (1745 through 1830), my dad ordered baptism, marriage and death records from the LDS. (This was 25 years ago; I don't know if the same method is still available.)

He had to trawl through a lot of microfiche, but he found a lot of baptism records. He also found several marriage records, which included signatures. He found several death records, which were helpful. Example: Betty Vaus, widow of William Vaus. It gave the date and I believe her age.

We also found out that William Vaus was a church warden. I cannot find it anymore, but at one time I had a printout of information showing that William had given money to help renovate the church or pews, or something.

My ancestors moved to Surrey around 1830 and the baptism records there included the father's occupation.

(Note: giving you my information so you can see what type of information is available.) :)

Hi Lisa,

Just realised they married in Milford which wasn't home to either of them. That might explain why no direct relatives were witnesses.

James was from Pembroke Dock and they returned there after the marriage. Mary was from Newport.

The problem tracking Mary's siblings is that Evans is such a common name I'd have to buy a lot of certs.

James was 29 when he married Mary in October 1858 so somewhere between March 1851 and then was his first marriage.

It must be one of these:

Marriages Mar 1853
BROWN James Pembroke 11a 759

Marriages Dec 1855
BROWN James Haverford W 11a 1193

Marriages Dec 1856
Brown James Pembroke 11a 1164

Rose

Hi Rose:

I edited my original posting right as you posted, adding the paragraph near the end, regarding witnesses.
-----------
I only (that I know about) have a few widows and widowers who remarried and in all cases, they did have children during the first marriages. I'm assuming James Brown would have been about 27 or older when he married Mary, which depending upon when his first wife died, could have given them plenty of time to have at least one child.

You've been very helpful (and knowledgeable) to me in the past, so I'm assuming you've tried every imaginable google combination for James Brown and Pembroke Dock? I've found bits and pieces about my Essex and Irish ancestors with google searches. Perhaps there might be something online about James' first marriage or his children?

(Just noticed it's James Jr. who was mayor. Perhaps there still might be information about the family, eh?)

I'm interested to see what others have to say.

Hi Lisa,

Thanks for your thoughts. I just received the marriage cert for James Brown and Mary Evans.

Mary's children as mentioned in the 1871 census were James and William Henry, so no help there.

She's not with her parents in 1851 and I've been unable to find James and Mary in 1861. I have their son's birth certificate who was born just after the 1861 census but their street appears to be missing. It's a shame because James is a widower on the marriage cert so there could be a child from his previous marriage listed, or even a child born before James and William Henry.

James junior went on to become mayor of Pembroke Dock so he's one of my most interesting ancestors.

Rose

Hi Rose: Most of my ancestors were in Canada by 1860, so I'm not too familiar with English census information. However, here are my thoughts:

Could Thomas could be a cousin or other relation? (One of my English ancestors used a cousin as a witness.)

Do you know the names of Mary's children? If so, are any similar to her siblings or parents in 1841? (Not that they have to be, but it helps if they are.)

Were you able to find John and Martha Evans in 1851. If so, was that Mary living with them? I noticed you didn't include the 1851 for Mary. Was it destroyed, or perhaps you haven't found it yet?

GR members have mentioned that birthdates aren't reliable on census returns. So, I wouldn't be too worried about the age differences. The 1871 and 1881 census birthdates are a little disturbing though, since they are fairly different from the other dates.

Excluding buying certificates, would there be any records for the siblings mentioned in 1841 that might include Mary's name? (You once found my ancestor mentioned with her sister as witnesses to a marriage. Perhaps Mary Brown might be mentioned with one of the Evans siblings?)

Sorry I haven't been very helpful and hope my rambling makes a little bit of sense.

I'm looking for a Mary Evans born c1835 in Newport, Pembrokeshire.

She married a James Brown in 12/10/1858 in Milford and she was 26. Her father is listed a John Evans, Ag Lab.

Her age varies every time it is recorded.

In 1858 she's born c1832
1871 born c1839
1881 born c1840
1891 born c1834
1900 born c1834 when she died.

I think this is her family in 1841.

1841 Wales Census
Name: Mary Evans
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1832
Where born: Pembrokeshire, Wales
Civil Parish: Newport
Hundred: Kemess
County/Island: Pembrokeshire
Country: Wales
Registration district: Cardigan
Sub registration district: Newport
Household Members: Name Name
Ann Evans 10
Daniel Evans 3
Elesia Evans 5
John Evans 40
Martha Evans 40
Mary Evans 9


The only thing that bothers me is a Thomas Evans is listed as a witness and this family doesn't appear to have one. I think John Martha married in 1828.

This IGI record could be her:

MARY EVANS
Birth: 07 OCT 1831
Christening: 15 JAN 1832 Ebenezer Independent, Newport, Pembroke, Wales
Father: JOHN EVANS
Mother: MARTHA

meaning she would have been 27 when she married.]

What do you think?

Rose