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Hello. Are there anybody. Who are able to locate records (Birth, marriage or death). With regards to Rose Whitford (Gold). Born Bethnal Green, London 1898. Believe she was born out of wedlock. Parents Rosina Harriet Whitford [ Goldstein /Gold] 1877 -1941 and Joseph Goldstein / Gold 1868 -1938.

With thanks

George.

(if anything from below)

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1252590?page=2

Chris :)


MaureeninNY Report 21 Dec 2010 17:22

???
Name: Harriett Rosina Whitford
Year of Registration: 1877
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Bethnal Green
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1c
Page: 267

Marriages Mar 1899 (>99%)
GOLDSTEIN Joseph Mile End 1c 523
Whitford Rose Mile End 1c 523

1901
Name: Rose Goldstein (She's a Whit*ford on previous census)
[Rose Bradbury]
Age: 24
Estimated birth year: abt 1877
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: Harry Bradbury
Mother's name: Mabel Bradbury
Gender: Female
Where born: Bethnal Green, London, England
Civil Parish: Bethnal Green
Ecclesiastical parish: St James the Less
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Bethnal Green
Sub-registration district: Bethnal Green, East
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 43
Household Members:
Name Age
Harry Bradbury 51
Mabel Bradbury 51
Janet Bradbury 7
Mabel Bradbury 15
Rose Goldstein 24
Victoria Goldstein 3
John W Whitford 18
Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 292; Folio: 157; Page: 6.

Maureen


edits (FMP version below)

1901 (Find My Past)
Harry Bradbury Head Married Male 51 1850 Engineer & Fitter Oldham, Lancashire, England
Mabel Bradbury Wife Married Female 51 1850 - Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
Janet Bradbury Daughter Single Female 7 1894 - Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
Mabel Bradbury Daughter Single Female 15 1886 Boot Stamper Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
Rose Goldstein Daughter Married Female 24 1877 Waitress Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
Victoria Goldstein Grand Daughter - Female 3 1898 - Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
John Wm Goldstein Boarder Single Male 18 1883 Engineer's Turner Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
Street Old Ford Road
Parish Bethnal Green
County London
Municipal ward East
Registration district Bethnal Green
Archive reference RG13
Piece number 292
Folio 157
Page 6

Where have you found mention of Rose, George?

I can't see her either as Whitford or Gold in 1901 census, nor her birth on FreeBMD.

How have you arrived at the supposition that her parents were Rosina and Joseph?

I don't see her mentioned on your other thread. (link posted by Chris above) unless I've missed it among the many names and dates.

Your other thread proves that she was not the Rose Ethel Gould born 1897 Bethnal Green.

Sorry ArgyllGran I think young Rose should be Victoria. I have assumed that she was Josephs daughter. But have aired on caution. As I have no evidence that he was her biological father. I have this feeling she remained a spinster. Finding a death record would be useful. Thank you Chris...

Think perhaps Maureen wondered if 1877 was Birth?...

(apologies for confusion!)

(miss her on GR now!)

Chris :)

They didn't marry till 1899

Marriages Mar 1899
GOLDSTEIN Joseph Mile End 1c 523
WHITFORD Rose Mile End 1c 523

Looks like Victoria was illegitimate
Births Dec 1897
Whitford Victoria Ethel W. Ham 4a 74

Yes Chris. Maureen was correct. Victoria's mother Rosina was born Harriet:

BIRTH CERTIFICATE: States name as Harriett Rosina Whitford. Born Ninth February 1877 at 204 Old Ford Street, Bethnal Green. Father John Henry Whitford, a house decorator and Charlotte Whitford (Formerly Miller)

(no idea on below!)

No, Maiden Name Polmounter, Married 1921

Chris :)

Deaths Jun 1962 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------------
WHITFORD Victorina 65 St.Austell 7a 169


1939 Register Transcription (Preview) (Find My Past)

Whitford Household
St Austell R.D., Cornwall, Englan
Victorina Whitford 1897
Charles Whitford is also on this record

I think the Victorina Whitford 1897 death reference may well have been a distant relative Chris. As I now believe her grandfather was born that neck of the woods. unless of course she moved up that way in later life. Will research into the marraige ref you mentioned.

Yes you are correct Shirley. She was born illegitimate. No fathers name given on the birth certificate.

I have a record from London, England, Selected Poor Law Removal and Settlement Records, 1698-1930

29th Sept 1899

Goldstein Rose 22 years

Whitford Victoria Ethel 2 years on 11th October 1899 next.

Husband Joseph Goldstein married 11th March 1899

His parents lived at 18, Courts ? rd Burdett Rd

he is a cabinet makers by trade have known him 4 years and manager of Greyhound for 2 months he left that 3 or 4 years ago
Also at Morris Jacobs Hanbury St for 6 weeks left that 4 weeks ago
his parents have been at 18 Crullo (?) Rd about 6 years.

I'm a bit confused with all these possibilities and changes of name, but will throw this into the pot in case relevant:

Ancestry suggests this is Victoria's birth. I know Ancestry's suggestions are often rubbish, but just maybe - could it be a mistake on the GRO Index ??
I don't see a Victor in 1901 or 1911, nor a childhood death.

Victor Goldstein
in the England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
Name: Victor Goldstein
Registration Year: 1898
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration district: Bethnal Green
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1c
Page: 150


EDIT:
Re possible childhood death, I suppose this might be Victor in a different area:

Deaths Dec 1898 (>99%)
Goldstein Victor 0 Hackney 1b 304

The record you just showed me is very interesting Mel. This is the first time I have seen this.

You have the right family. Is it possible to see the full transcript. The dates and home addresses all seem to be on the money. Thank you...

Yes ArgllGran the birth and death index's could well be of the same baby. If there were a baptism record found in between those dates. Then it could narrow down the parents etc.

If they were the same parents as Victoria Whitford (Goldstein). Then the mother would have fell pregnant soon after giving birth to Victoria on 11th Oct 1897. Victor Goldstein's Reg: 1898 Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep.

(the above posted by Mel, was from Ancestry, and was an Examination)

Chris :)

(below from google about Poor Law Removal etc.)

https://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/things-to-do/london-metropolitan-archives/visitor-information/Documents/04-poor-law-records-in-london-and-elsewhere.pdf

When anyone applied for poor relief, they would probably have undergone a settlement examination to determine which parish was legally responsible for relieving them. The settlement examination would have taken the form of questioning about their life history, including where they were born, whether they had served an apprenticeship or been in service for a year, where they had lived and for how long and what rent they had paid, where their children were born, and even their parents’ life histories, as any of these might determine their place of legal settlement or that of their children. A married woman or a widow would have been questioned about her husband. If their place of legal settlement was found to be elsewhere, a magistrate could sign a removal order forcing them to go there.


edits (quite a few images for below also)

London, England, Selected Poor Law Removal Settlement (Ancestry)

Rose Goldstein Orders of Removal 1899 Bethnal Green Bethnal Green

Quite harsh in them days. Thank you for that Chris...